The more of these that I hear, the more concerned about Monvee I become:

First, where is our needing to be profiled and diagnosed for spiritual inhibiters taught in Scripture? Rather, Scripture speaks of a transformation by the renewing of our minds, as the Holy Spirit applies the Gospel of Christ to us through His word.

Second, where is the hard scientific evidence that the Monvee tests diagnose anything at all, let alone that its recommendations are useful? I wonder whether you or your Church were provided with any objective evidence supporting its validity?

The whole thing smacks more than a little of a pursuit of hidden, secret revelation about ourselves through extra-Biblical means. So, I wonder, how is Monvee intrinsically different from various forms of divination, such as astrology?

Anyway, enough of my musings. Thank you again for sharing your very helpful first-hand observations.

I took the online Monvee evaluation – I was very excited about the idea of being evaluated, I like quizzes, I want to grow in my spiritual life… but to my shock and dismay the spiritual inhibitor that I have, according to the 26 quick and easy questions is…”Words that describe your spiritual inhibitor are sexual immorality, impurity, passion, and sensuality. Sometimes those wrong desires can involve misuse of power.” I spent a couple weeks mulling this over, trying to figure out how I, who have only been with my husband, and in fact have often been somewhat a prude, can be considered sexually immoral. Did these photos and graphs that I responded to somehow know that I had been molested as a child, a victim of incest? When I was saved by Jesus Christ as a teenager, He transformed me. He rescued me. He erased my past.

I wanted to talk to our pastor about it but he refers all Monvee issues to the associate pastor. I wasn’t comfortable talking about this with the associate pastor. I finally told my husband how upset I was about it, and he (who is not an enthusiastic quiz taker) took the assessment. His spiritual inhibitor was as ridiculously wrong as mine was. I know him well enough to see that (we’ve been married 31 years), just as he knows me well enough to know that I was getting “nutted up” about nothing.

My husband and I wonder: is this a scam? Has our church been “taken in?” by a charismatic salesperson? How many people will believe what this software says about them? How many people will leave the church because of it? How well did the church look into this before buying into it? Did all the elders take the evaluation?

I’ve been impressed by the biblical foundation of this church. I am surprised that they’ve bought into something which may not be biblically sound.

There is no way that a 26 question computer evaluation can or should make the kind of judgments this does about someone’s spiritual character. We will be talking to the church leaders about it. The program started about a month ago, I’m hoping that not too much damage has been done.

The younger generations have no obligations to their local churches, and with the inability to be the type of charismatic and pragmatic, yet challenging sources of knowledge that younger generations can find elsewhere, local churches will continue to fail until they adapt their methods (not their message, just their methods) in which they reach the masses.

My hope would be that Monvee would create a custom recommended path for you, but STILL give you the freedom to explore your own personal journey in a dynamic way, rather than a static way. Help Christians identify their weaknesses, but give them a multilayered path with multiple sources of learning that they can explore on their own, at their own pace. It IS possible to let the holy spirit into the digital world, but the system has to be set up correctly and intentionally to make that happen.
Once I know for sure whether Monvee does this, I’ll know whether to recommend it to our church and denomination, or whether I have to continue in my struggle to find or create something as a better alternative.
One thing I know for sure is that while more and more people are leaving their churches and faith at record numbers, more and more people are still searching for God, as one of the top 10 google searches continues to be the question “Who, what or where is God?” For that reason, it stands to reason that the correct minded, hearts-in-teh-right-place people need to create a portal for that knowledge. Obviously there is no simple answer, and no absolute right answer. But there can be a “right” journey towards that answer, if such a place could be created.

What I have seen thus far, though, makes me more confident of the things I have written in this article, not less so. I am, of course, willing to correct anything I’ve said if evidence to the contrary arises! One thing is absolutely plain, and that is that John Ortberg has been drinking deeply at the well of Dallas Willard and Henri Nouwen – this is not a good thing.

I think you’re right that there is a tendency in the wider Western church (I’m not qualified to speak of the church elsewhere) to downplay the role of the Holy Spirit. I don’t think that I have a definite answer as to why that is. I think your suggestion might well be part of it – in fact, I am sure it is. I think also that there is simply a lot of ignorance over exactly what His role is, as set out in Scripture.

I have spent a number of years past in Pentecostal and soft-charismatic circles, and I rather think that the emphasis there (at least, it used to be, when I was among them) tends to be on the Holy Spirit as the one who gives spiritual gifts, and perhaps as the One who indwells and ‘enables us to live a holy life’ (obviously, I would now want to nuance any interpretation of that latter statement!). The Holy Spirit’s sovereign work in regeneration and sanctification is thus often overlooked. It was only when I started seriously reading and listening to Reformed and Lutheran theologians that I began to grasp how immense a role the Holy Spirit plays. People forget that Calvin is often thought of as the theologian of the Holy Spirit!

I should probably qualify what I said about the church making disciples. Although we participate, I’d assert that it is God alone who is initiator of the work (causing and enabling us to do it), and that He alone is the one who makes it fruitful. He is everything. We are nothing. All the glory is His, for we are His workmanship in Christ. I did not mean in any way to deny that God alone is the one who works salvation and sanctification in our lives. As Paul said:

‘Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building.’ (1 Cor. 3:5–9, NKJV)

It’s probably better to read that snippet in its wider context, but I think you’ll understand the point I am trying to make.

I also think that there is a tendency to downplay (or outright deny) the sovereignty of God in all matters of our life and faith, and the overlooking of the work of the Holy Spirit is probably partly due to that. Our sinful nature doesn’t like the fact that none of us deserves anything than God’s fierce wrath and His eternal condemnation. It doesn’t like the fact that God sovereignly chooses whom to save and whom to pass over – not based upon anything we do, but merely according to the good pleasure of His perfect will. And our sinful nature doesn’t like the fact that we can contribute nothing to our salvation (apart from our sin!), and nothing to our sanctification.

Our new regenerate nature, however, clings to these precious truths – at least, if we have been well taught! The work is all of Him, and none of us! But, as we see in Rom. 7, the two natures are at war with each other in this life, and we struggle daily. That struggle points us constantly back to Christ, to trust in His merits alone for our salvation and sanctification. The reality of the struggle causes us to give up any pretentions to our own ability to make ourselves holy or to live a holy life. Instead, we trust in Him alone and seek Him daily to work in us by His Holy Spirit to cause us to live in a way that brings Him glory.

Now, concerning your website – thank you for the link! I’d love to take a look at it, and I shall look forward to doing so properly in the very near future. I shall certainly listen to what you have available as well. I think it’s great that you are using your God-given abilities to serve your brothers and sisters in Christ and to glorify Him. Paul exhorts the Ephesians to speak ‘to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ’. It sounds like you’re putting that into practice!

Peace and grace to you in our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ!

It’s amazing how prevalent the tendency to despise the Holy Spirit is. I think even in the most Bible-centric churches, people tend to gloss Him over. Maybe it is a reaction to the Pentecostal movement? I’m not sure. Maybe it’s that we dislike the tension created by the idea that we do the work (as in make disciples) but God does it through us by His sovereign will and foreknowledge.

I like your blog, I will definitely be back. :)

I hope you’ll take a look at my site as well. I’m a songwriter, and my goal is to support others like me who see their musical gifts as something given by God primarily for their local church (I’m not condemning music biz types, but I do think it’s the healthiest route for any Christian musician). My site is still pretty new, so I haven’t quite got the Mp3s up to listen to. But you can listen here too, if you feel inclined to: http://www.reverbnation.com/tiffanykimballwismer.

*You can edit out this personal stuff if you want :-)

Thanks again!

With regard to question of who is supposed to be hand-crafting disciples, I understand and agree entirely with the thrust of your point.

Having said that, given that Jesus told his disciples to ‘go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you’, it isn’t out of bounds for us to talk about the role of the Church in making disciples. Yes, the Holy Spirit brings about change in our lives through His sanctifying work – our spiritual growth into Christ is entirely His work and none of ours. But part of the means that God has ordained to accomplish this is the proper care, feeding and instruction of the flock with the Gospel by the pastors/elders that He has appointed as overseers of the Church.

One of the big problems with so much of the Church Growth Movement is that it has abandoned the idea that elders should be responsible for the doctrinal instruction of the flock (as Jesus says, ‘teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you’). That’s why I went back to Richard Baxter as an example of what proper care, feeding and instruction looks like.

Anyway, you make great points! Thank you, and please stop by again :-)

It makes sense – let’s say you wake up one day and find that your congregation (or you yourself) has no power to overcome sin. You start to worry that this perhaps means you (or your congregation) are unregenerate. You can see that your “faith” isn’t producing works. So instead of crying out to Him for mercy, and asking Him to save you, you create a man-made, digital version of the Holy Spirit that tells you what you want to hear. This new Friend a.) doesn’t convict you of sin b.) doesn’t require you to worship it c.) doesn’t hold you to any kind of standard and d.) creates a spiritual growth plan for you that is based entirely on your own desires and comfort-zone. What could be better??

He’s right when he says this is going to take Christianity to a whole new level, but what he doesn’t realize is that it is a much lower, hotter level. :-(

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5285116

Thanks Mike!