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	<title>Comments on: Spiritual growth? There’s an app for that</title>
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	<description>Bible-Based Resources and Comment</description>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/2010/03/07/spiritual-growth-there%e2%80%99s-an-app-for-that/#comment-1241</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 16:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/?p=417#comment-1241</guid>
		<description>While I&#039;m curious about Monvee specifically (as a church leader in my local, smaller church) I&#039;m more curious about how the church can correctly use technology in the digital age to further peoples individual discipleship walks.  Lets face it, the local ma and pa churches do NOT appeal to the mainstream in society.  The traditional church model (including the mega church format, now a step behind current generations) incorporates the &quot;feed me&quot; format of learning, which does not function in ANY type of personal growth and education model for the digital generations.  Why do younger (and older, tech capable people) people read books or even watch full length television shows when they can interact with online programs and apps and engage personally (or seemingly personally) with those programs?  
   The truth is, the age of the internet has created both social and educational networks for everything successfully, except perhaps, true disciples on a journey towards a better understanding of God and their relationship with him.  I&#039;ve been personally charged for sometime in coming up with an educational hub for personal spiritual growth that ISN&#039;T limited to a singular dimensional portal of guided regular feedings.  My hope is that Monvee could be that, though I&#039;ve not been able to see it in practice yet either.  

The younger generations have no obligations to their local churches, and with the inability to be the type of charismatic and pragmatic, yet  challenging sources of knowledge that younger generations can find elsewhere, local churches will continue to fail until they adapt their methods (not their message, just their methods) in which they reach the masses.  

My hope would be that Monvee would create a custom recommended path for you, but STILL give you the freedom to explore your own personal journey in a dynamic way, rather than a static way.  Help Christians identify their weaknesses, but give them a multilayered path with multiple sources of learning that they can explore on their own, at their own pace.  It IS possible to let the holy spirit into the digital world, but the system has to be set up correctly and intentionally to make that happen.  
Once I know for sure whether Monvee does this, I&#039;ll know whether to recommend it to our church and denomination, or whether I have to continue in my struggle to find or create something as a better alternative.  
One thing I know for sure is that while more and more people are leaving their churches and faith at record numbers, more and more people are still searching for God, as one of the top 10 google searches continues to be the question &quot;Who, what or where is God?&quot;   For that reason, it stands to reason that the correct minded, hearts-in-teh-right-place people need to create a portal for that knowledge.  Obviously there is no simple answer, and no absolute right answer.  But there can be a &quot;right&quot; journey towards that answer, if such a place could be created.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I&#8217;m curious about Monvee specifically (as a church leader in my local, smaller church) I&#8217;m more curious about how the church can correctly use technology in the digital age to further peoples individual discipleship walks.  Lets face it, the local ma and pa churches do NOT appeal to the mainstream in society.  The traditional church model (including the mega church format, now a step behind current generations) incorporates the &#8220;feed me&#8221; format of learning, which does not function in ANY type of personal growth and education model for the digital generations.  Why do younger (and older, tech capable people) people read books or even watch full length television shows when they can interact with online programs and apps and engage personally (or seemingly personally) with those programs?<br />
   The truth is, the age of the internet has created both social and educational networks for everything successfully, except perhaps, true disciples on a journey towards a better understanding of God and their relationship with him.  I&#8217;ve been personally charged for sometime in coming up with an educational hub for personal spiritual growth that ISN&#8217;T limited to a singular dimensional portal of guided regular feedings.  My hope is that Monvee could be that, though I&#8217;ve not been able to see it in practice yet either.  </p>
<p>The younger generations have no obligations to their local churches, and with the inability to be the type of charismatic and pragmatic, yet  challenging sources of knowledge that younger generations can find elsewhere, local churches will continue to fail until they adapt their methods (not their message, just their methods) in which they reach the masses.  </p>
<p>My hope would be that Monvee would create a custom recommended path for you, but STILL give you the freedom to explore your own personal journey in a dynamic way, rather than a static way.  Help Christians identify their weaknesses, but give them a multilayered path with multiple sources of learning that they can explore on their own, at their own pace.  It IS possible to let the holy spirit into the digital world, but the system has to be set up correctly and intentionally to make that happen.<br />
Once I know for sure whether Monvee does this, I&#8217;ll know whether to recommend it to our church and denomination, or whether I have to continue in my struggle to find or create something as a better alternative.<br />
One thing I know for sure is that while more and more people are leaving their churches and faith at record numbers, more and more people are still searching for God, as one of the top 10 google searches continues to be the question &#8220;Who, what or where is God?&#8221;   For that reason, it stands to reason that the correct minded, hearts-in-teh-right-place people need to create a portal for that knowledge.  Obviously there is no simple answer, and no absolute right answer.  But there can be a &#8220;right&#8221; journey towards that answer, if such a place could be created.</p>
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		<title>By: BetterThanSacrifice</title>
		<link>http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/2010/03/07/spiritual-growth-there%e2%80%99s-an-app-for-that/#comment-1107</link>
		<dc:creator>BetterThanSacrifice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 07:26:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/?p=417#comment-1107</guid>
		<description>Ben, thank you so much for commenting and sharing your first-hand experiences. I’d love to hear from you again if you find out more about Monvee over the coming weeks as your church runs with this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben, thank you so much for commenting and sharing your first-hand experiences. I’d love to hear from you again if you find out more about Monvee over the coming weeks as your church runs with this.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Johnson</title>
		<link>http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/2010/03/07/spiritual-growth-there%e2%80%99s-an-app-for-that/#comment-1106</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 01:52:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/?p=417#comment-1106</guid>
		<description>I am a member of one of these &quot;Mega-Churches&quot; and this past weekend they pitched this Monvee thing. Without knowing what it was, and given more than a little bit of info on it other than it is a tool for spiritual growth, I must admit I was excited to see what it was. Then we are told about the psych profile business used to fine tune our spiritual growth tool. That initially didn&#039;t make me to suspicious. After all, my church is a God fearing, Christ loving, tough on sin, ...yes, &#039;seeker&#039; church. But, then we are told the tool will cost us $40 ea. And, that we are a BETA site. Why wouldn&#039;t our church offer a growth tool to us free of charge? Or at least at an extremely low cost (as in just high enough to cover some extra cost the church may take on). Immediately warning bells went off and I knew I needed to find out more about this. 
I have found everything on Monvee from its a government organized conspiracy to control our minds to a perfect new tool to help people  grow in their faith. This article is the best I&#039;ve found so far. Thank you for shedding light on this. I think you&#039;ve described my suspicions to a &#039;T&#039;.
It appears the creators of Monvee, and those using it, feel a need for some reason to use something other than Christ, the Spirit of God, and the Bible to further a person&#039;s spiritual growth.
My personal experience is that the best tool for spiritual growth is not a web-based piece of software, but rather individual disciplines and real relationships with believers navigating their way through scripture together, praying together, and supporting each other. 
Thanks for your insight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a member of one of these &#8220;Mega-Churches&#8221; and this past weekend they pitched this Monvee thing. Without knowing what it was, and given more than a little bit of info on it other than it is a tool for spiritual growth, I must admit I was excited to see what it was. Then we are told about the psych profile business used to fine tune our spiritual growth tool. That initially didn&#8217;t make me to suspicious. After all, my church is a God fearing, Christ loving, tough on sin, &#8230;yes, &#8216;seeker&#8217; church. But, then we are told the tool will cost us $40 ea. And, that we are a BETA site. Why wouldn&#8217;t our church offer a growth tool to us free of charge? Or at least at an extremely low cost (as in just high enough to cover some extra cost the church may take on). Immediately warning bells went off and I knew I needed to find out more about this.<br />
I have found everything on Monvee from its a government organized conspiracy to control our minds to a perfect new tool to help people  grow in their faith. This article is the best I&#8217;ve found so far. Thank you for shedding light on this. I think you&#8217;ve described my suspicions to a &#8216;T&#8217;.<br />
It appears the creators of Monvee, and those using it, feel a need for some reason to use something other than Christ, the Spirit of God, and the Bible to further a person&#8217;s spiritual growth.<br />
My personal experience is that the best tool for spiritual growth is not a web-based piece of software, but rather individual disciplines and real relationships with believers navigating their way through scripture together, praying together, and supporting each other.<br />
Thanks for your insight.</p>
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		<title>By: BetterThanSacrifice</title>
		<link>http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/2010/03/07/spiritual-growth-there%e2%80%99s-an-app-for-that/#comment-218</link>
		<dc:creator>BetterThanSacrifice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 19:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/?p=417#comment-218</guid>
		<description>Precisely, Melba! Thank you for visiting and leaving a comment :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Precisely, Melba! Thank you for visiting and leaving a comment <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Melba Sibrel</title>
		<link>http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/2010/03/07/spiritual-growth-there%e2%80%99s-an-app-for-that/#comment-211</link>
		<dc:creator>Melba Sibrel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 17:45:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/?p=417#comment-211</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s as if they&#039;re saying &#039;what we&#039;ve been doing hasn&#039;t worked; so let&#039;s do it some more!&#039;
Their &#039;god&#039; seems to need sooo much help. I believe I&#039;ll stick with the real Triune God and His Word Alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s as if they&#8217;re saying &#8216;what we&#8217;ve been doing hasn&#8217;t worked; so let&#8217;s do it some more!&#8217;<br />
Their &#8216;god&#8217; seems to need sooo much help. I believe I&#8217;ll stick with the real Triune God and His Word Alone.</p>
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		<title>By: BetterThanSacrifice</title>
		<link>http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/2010/03/07/spiritual-growth-there%e2%80%99s-an-app-for-that/#comment-208</link>
		<dc:creator>BetterThanSacrifice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/?p=417#comment-208</guid>
		<description>Thanks for stopping by, Jeremy!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for stopping by, Jeremy!</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy B. Strang</title>
		<link>http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/2010/03/07/spiritual-growth-there%e2%80%99s-an-app-for-that/#comment-207</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy B. Strang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:56:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/?p=417#comment-207</guid>
		<description>Love the fact that you are speaking out about this!!!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love the fact that you are speaking out about this!!!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: BetterThanSacrifice</title>
		<link>http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/2010/03/07/spiritual-growth-there%e2%80%99s-an-app-for-that/#comment-203</link>
		<dc:creator>BetterThanSacrifice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/?p=417#comment-203</guid>
		<description>My friends the &lt;a href=&quot;http://solasisters.blogspot.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Sola Sisters&lt;/a&gt; have found quite a few bits and pieces relating to Monvee elsewhere, but the ‘free trial’ seems to require a code from John Ortberg’s &lt;em&gt;The Me I Want to Be&lt;/em&gt; book. There’s also a separate page where pastors can sign up, but I don’t qualify for that (and I’m not prepared to be dishonest for the sake of conducting research).

What I have seen thus far, though, makes me more confident of the things I have written in this article, not less so. I am, of course, willing to correct anything I’ve said if evidence to the contrary arises! One thing is absolutely plain, and that is that John Ortberg has been drinking deeply at the well of Dallas Willard and Henri Nouwen – this is not a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My friends the <a href="http://solasisters.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Sola Sisters</a> have found quite a few bits and pieces relating to Monvee elsewhere, but the ‘free trial’ seems to require a code from John Ortberg’s <em>The Me I Want to Be</em> book. There’s also a separate page where pastors can sign up, but I don’t qualify for that (and I’m not prepared to be dishonest for the sake of conducting research).</p>
<p>What I have seen thus far, though, makes me more confident of the things I have written in this article, not less so. I am, of course, willing to correct anything I’ve said if evidence to the contrary arises! One thing is absolutely plain, and that is that John Ortberg has been drinking deeply at the well of Dallas Willard and Henri Nouwen – this is not a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: BetterThanSacrifice</title>
		<link>http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/2010/03/07/spiritual-growth-there%e2%80%99s-an-app-for-that/#comment-202</link>
		<dc:creator>BetterThanSacrifice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:35:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/?p=417#comment-202</guid>
		<description>Hi Tiffany, thank you for a great response :-)

I think you’re right that there is a tendency in the wider Western church (I’m not qualified to speak of the church elsewhere) to downplay the role of the Holy Spirit. I don’t think that I have a definite answer as to why that is. I think your suggestion might well be part of it – in fact, I am sure it is. I think also that there is simply a lot of ignorance over exactly what His role is, as set out in Scripture.

I have spent a number of years past in Pentecostal and soft-charismatic circles, and I rather think that the emphasis there (at least, it used to be, when I was among them) tends to be on the Holy Spirit as the one who gives spiritual gifts, and perhaps as the One who indwells and ‘enables us to live a holy life’ (obviously, I would now want to nuance any interpretation of that latter statement!). The Holy Spirit’s sovereign work in regeneration and sanctification is thus often overlooked. It was only when I started seriously reading and listening to Reformed and Lutheran theologians that I began to grasp how immense a role the Holy Spirit plays. People forget that Calvin is often thought of as the theologian of the Holy Spirit!

I should probably qualify what I said about the church making disciples. Although we participate, I’d assert that it is God &lt;em&gt;alone&lt;/em&gt; who is initiator of the work (causing and enabling us to do it), and that He &lt;em&gt;alone&lt;/em&gt; is the one who makes it fruitful. He is everything. We are nothing. All the glory is His, for we are His workmanship in Christ. I did not mean in any way to deny that God alone is the one who works salvation and sanctification in our lives. As Paul said:

‘Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? &lt;em&gt;I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.&lt;/em&gt; Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building.’ (1 Cor. 3:5–9, NKJV)

It’s probably better to read that snippet in its wider context, but I think you’ll understand the point I am trying to make. 

I also think that there is a tendency to downplay (or outright deny) the sovereignty of God in all matters of our life and faith, and the overlooking of the work of the Holy Spirit is probably partly due to that. Our sinful nature doesn’t like the fact that none of us &lt;em&gt;deserves&lt;/em&gt; anything than God’s fierce wrath and His eternal condemnation. It doesn’t like the fact that God sovereignly chooses whom to save and whom to pass over – &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; based upon anything we do, but merely according to the good pleasure of His perfect will. And our sinful nature doesn’t like the fact that we can contribute nothing to our salvation (apart from our sin!), and nothing to our sanctification.

Our new regenerate nature, however, clings to these precious truths – at least, if we have been well taught! The work is all of Him, and none of us! But, as we see in Rom. 7, the two natures are at war with each other in this life, and we struggle daily. That struggle points us constantly back to Christ, to trust in His merits alone for our salvation and sanctification. The reality of the struggle causes us to give up any pretentions to our own ability to make ourselves holy or to live a holy life. Instead, we trust in Him alone and seek Him daily to work in us by His Holy Spirit to cause us to live in a way that brings Him glory.

Now, concerning your website – thank you for the link! I’d love to take a look at it, and I shall look forward to doing so properly in the very near future. I shall certainly listen to what you have available as well. I think it’s great that you are using your God-given abilities to serve your brothers and sisters in Christ and to glorify Him. Paul exhorts the Ephesians to speak ‘to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ’. It sounds like you’re putting that into practice!

Peace and grace to you in our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Tiffany, thank you for a great response <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I think you’re right that there is a tendency in the wider Western church (I’m not qualified to speak of the church elsewhere) to downplay the role of the Holy Spirit. I don’t think that I have a definite answer as to why that is. I think your suggestion might well be part of it – in fact, I am sure it is. I think also that there is simply a lot of ignorance over exactly what His role is, as set out in Scripture.</p>
<p>I have spent a number of years past in Pentecostal and soft-charismatic circles, and I rather think that the emphasis there (at least, it used to be, when I was among them) tends to be on the Holy Spirit as the one who gives spiritual gifts, and perhaps as the One who indwells and ‘enables us to live a holy life’ (obviously, I would now want to nuance any interpretation of that latter statement!). The Holy Spirit’s sovereign work in regeneration and sanctification is thus often overlooked. It was only when I started seriously reading and listening to Reformed and Lutheran theologians that I began to grasp how immense a role the Holy Spirit plays. People forget that Calvin is often thought of as the theologian of the Holy Spirit!</p>
<p>I should probably qualify what I said about the church making disciples. Although we participate, I’d assert that it is God <em>alone</em> who is initiator of the work (causing and enabling us to do it), and that He <em>alone</em> is the one who makes it fruitful. He is everything. We are nothing. All the glory is His, for we are His workmanship in Christ. I did not mean in any way to deny that God alone is the one who works salvation and sanctification in our lives. As Paul said:</p>
<p>‘Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? <em>I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.</em> Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building.’ (1 Cor. 3:5–9, NKJV)</p>
<p>It’s probably better to read that snippet in its wider context, but I think you’ll understand the point I am trying to make. </p>
<p>I also think that there is a tendency to downplay (or outright deny) the sovereignty of God in all matters of our life and faith, and the overlooking of the work of the Holy Spirit is probably partly due to that. Our sinful nature doesn’t like the fact that none of us <em>deserves</em> anything than God’s fierce wrath and His eternal condemnation. It doesn’t like the fact that God sovereignly chooses whom to save and whom to pass over – <em>not</em> based upon anything we do, but merely according to the good pleasure of His perfect will. And our sinful nature doesn’t like the fact that we can contribute nothing to our salvation (apart from our sin!), and nothing to our sanctification.</p>
<p>Our new regenerate nature, however, clings to these precious truths – at least, if we have been well taught! The work is all of Him, and none of us! But, as we see in Rom. 7, the two natures are at war with each other in this life, and we struggle daily. That struggle points us constantly back to Christ, to trust in His merits alone for our salvation and sanctification. The reality of the struggle causes us to give up any pretentions to our own ability to make ourselves holy or to live a holy life. Instead, we trust in Him alone and seek Him daily to work in us by His Holy Spirit to cause us to live in a way that brings Him glory.</p>
<p>Now, concerning your website – thank you for the link! I’d love to take a look at it, and I shall look forward to doing so properly in the very near future. I shall certainly listen to what you have available as well. I think it’s great that you are using your God-given abilities to serve your brothers and sisters in Christ and to glorify Him. Paul exhorts the Ephesians to speak ‘to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ’. It sounds like you’re putting that into practice!</p>
<p>Peace and grace to you in our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ!</p>
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		<title>By: Tiffany Wismer</title>
		<link>http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/2010/03/07/spiritual-growth-there%e2%80%99s-an-app-for-that/#comment-201</link>
		<dc:creator>Tiffany Wismer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:06:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.betterthansacrifice.org/?p=417#comment-201</guid>
		<description>Okay one more post and then I&#039;ll stop. I just have to know - has anyone tried the &quot;Monvee beta&quot; thing? I just went to the Monvee website (I won&#039;t honor them with a link) and there&#039;s a free trial that you can register for. I&#039;m morbidly curious but probably not curious enough to actually sign up! Has anybody explored the inner-workings of this thing? What is it like?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay one more post and then I&#8217;ll stop. I just have to know &#8211; has anyone tried the &#8220;Monvee beta&#8221; thing? I just went to the Monvee website (I won&#8217;t honor them with a link) and there&#8217;s a free trial that you can register for. I&#8217;m morbidly curious but probably not curious enough to actually sign up! Has anybody explored the inner-workings of this thing? What is it like?</p>
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